Tag: IEX

Citadel Paid SEC $22.6 Million to Settle Charges of Misleading Conduct

Citadel Paid SEC $22.6 million
Market News: SEC and IEX go after Citadel years after charges of misleading conduct.

In 2017, Citadel paid the SEC $22.6 million to settle charges that it misled customers about the way it priced trades.

The SEC found that between 2007 and 2010, Citadel used two algorithms to execute stock trades on customers’ behalf that gave investors a worse price for their trades, even when Citadel knew better prices existed elsewhere.

The SEC penalized Citadel for failing to disclose the use of those algorithms to clients.

“This affected millions of retail orders,” said Stephanie Avakian, the acting director of enforcement at the SEC at the time.

Citadel neither admitted nor denied the findings.

Today, Citadel has lost the court case against the IEX order type crippling its trading strategy, more on that down below.

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Citadel cheats retail investors

Citadel has been cheating retail investors for years now through a variety of loopholes the SEC has failed to stop.

The market maker is responsible for processing almost 50% of retail orders.

Citadel receives these orders by paying brokers such as Robinhood in what’s known as PFOF, or payment for order flow.

The problem arises when these orders are then traded through foreign exchanges allowing Citadel to pocket the best trading bid, essentially stealing from retail.

They accomplish this through HFT, or high frequency trading.

And because 90%-95% of retail orders are not executed through the lit exchange (NYSE), it gives Citadel’s short positions a massive advantage against retail investors going long.

This means only a small fraction of the demand is truly reflected in a company’s share price.

What is currently being done about the market manipulation?

SEC Citadel

The SEC has publicly discussed the possibility of banning PFOF for good, but the industry has lashed out.

In October of last year Citadel sued the SEC over the new D-Limit order that would protect displayed lit orders from being picked off by latency arbitrage players.

IEX is an exchange that relies heavily on the D-Limit order to outperform displayed order prices on other exchanges.

This means that predatory strategies such as market arbitrage, where high frequency firms profit from lower prices in foreign exchanges, will no longer be able to do so.

High frequency trading has been used against retail investors to not only gain better prices on stock from other ‘slow loading’ exchanges, but by also using this advantage to sell stock significantly cheaper.

So when you find an exchange that is showing lower prices, hedge funds betting against certain tickers may borrow high in another exchanges while benefiting the difference from selling the stock in those displaying lower prices.

The D-Limit order uses AI technology that provides more consistent and accurate data across all exchanges.

How will IEX affect Citadel?

how will IEX affect Citadel

In short, Citadel Securities and other high frequency trading firms will lose a lot of money.

The reason being is they are making money every second from using this high frequency trading technology to their benefit by getting better prices than anyone else in the market.

The IEX Exchange would put Citadel Securities in the same courtyard as retail investors, leveling the playfield.

IEX would create a foundation for a fairer market.

Citadel paid the SEC $22.6 million to settle charges on misleading conduct in 2017, but karma seems to be catching up for the hedge fund and market maker.

On July 29th, 2022, it was announced that Citadel has lost the court case against the IEX order type.

This is massive win for retail investors and a huge blow to the market maker and hedge fund.

But the SEC still has a lot of work ahead, especially if they’re looking to earn the trust of retail investors.

Only time will tell how significant this battle truly is.

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Sources: Reuters.

Related: Citadel Loses Court Case to IEX Order Type

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Citadel Loses Court Case to IEX Order Type

Citadel Loses Court Case to IEX Order Type
Market News: Citadel Loses Court Case to IEX

BREAKING: Citadel Securities just lost the court case to the IEX order type.

The ruling is a notable victory for IEX and a blow to Citadel Securities, which profits from small differences between the bid and ask prices in a trade.

(Bloomberg)—Citadel Securities LLC lost its case against the US Securities and Exchange Commission over a market order type from IEX Group Inc., after arguing the SEC botched its approval. 

A trio of federal judges in Washington on Friday upheld the regulator’s decision on the order type, D-Limit, which features a 350-microsecond delay meant to reduce the advantage of high-frequency traders.

The electronic trading firm founded by billionaire Ken Griffin argued that D-Limit hurts investors by delaying their orders and that the SEC approval process broke the laws and rules that govern it.

This is big news.

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A massive win for retail investors

iex order type

This is a huge win for retail investors and of course a big victory for IEX.

Citadel Securities, which profits from small differences between the bid and ask prices in a trade, will be losing a lot of money.

IEX, which markets itself as a champion of fairness in pricing for the average investor, began offering the discretionary limit order in October 2020 after the SEC stood by it in August. 

In suing its own regulator, Citadel Securities—one of the top market makers on the exchange—had asked the court to send D-Limit back to the SEC for reconsideration and reversal. 

Investors had no update on this case until now, Citadel loses the court case to IEX.

“The SEC’s determination that the DLimit order does not violate the Exchange Act by unfairly discriminating or unduly burdening competition was reasonable and supported by substantial evidence,” the court found.

Citadel Securities spokesperson David Millar said in a statement: “We look forward to continuing to engage with the SEC to ensure that the best interests of both retail and institutional investors are protected.”

IEX had no immediate comment on the court’s decision.

The SEC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. 

What Is The D-Limit Order?

The D-Limit order is designed to protect liquidity providers from potential “adverse selection” by latency arbitrage trading strategies.

This rule basically gives traders a way to buy or sell stock at the exchange while protecting them against unfavorable price moves, via Reuters.

“The D-Limit Order is an artificial intelligence order type that protects displayed lit orders from being picked off by latency arbitrage players.”

“It aims to benefit displayed equity market quotes with better prices, larger displayed sizes and more competition among liquidity providers.” via, JLN.  

This order is a massive threat to Citadel as it takes away predatory trading through the practices of market arbitrage.

What is Market Arbitrage?

Market arbitrage is the act of buying a security in one market and simultaneously selling it in another market for a higher price.

Traders frequently attempt to exploit the arbitrage opportunity by buying a stock on a foreign exchange where the share price hasn’t yet been adjusted for the fluctuating exchange rate, via Investopedia.

This type of trading takes advantage of everyone involved, including retail investors.

Citadel personnel argued that the D-Limit rule is detrimental to millions of retail investors and undermine the reliability of the markets.

Citadel Loses Court Case to IEX Sources: Chicago Business

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Why Is Citadel Securities Frightened Of The IEX Exchange?

IEX AMC

The lawsuit regarding the D-Limit order type is taking place on Monday, October 25th. Citadel is suing the SEC arguing that this new order type from the IEX Exchange will harm tens of millions of retail investors, via Reuters.

But will it?

Let’s dive deep into what the IEX Exchange is supposed to do for retail investors, how the D-Limit order will innovate the market, and what it will mean for AMC and GME.

franknez.com

Welcome to Franknez.com – I’ve been doing some more digging and what’s occurring with Citadel and the SEC is a lot bigger than I thought. This is an important time in history.

Let’s get started!

Impact Of IEX Exchange In Markets

IEX Exchange

So, what is the IEX Exchange anyway? IEX, or the “investors exchange” is a fair and transparent stock exchange dedicated to investor and issuer protection.

There are more than 150 broker members using it and around 10,643 unique symbols currently being traded.

The innovation behind the IEX Exchange relies heavily upon it’s D-Limit order type that is supposed to outperform displayed order prices on other exchanges.

This means that predatory strategies such as market arbitrage, where high frequency firms profit from lower prices in foreign exchanges, will no longer be able to do so.

High frequency trading has been used against retail investors to not only gain better prices on stock from other ‘slow loading’ exchanges, but by also using this advantage to sell stock significantly cheaper.

So when you find an exchange that is showing lower prices, hedge funds betting against certain tickers may borrow high in another exchanges while benefiting the difference from selling the stock in those displaying lower prices.

The D-Limit order uses AI technology that provides more consistent and accurate data across all exchanges.

This order type is going to provide high quality prices in the market and is truly innovative and for retail.

How Will The IEX Exchange Affect Citadel Securities?

Citadel

In short, Citadel Securities and other high frequency trading firms will lose a lot of money.

The reason being is they are making money every second from using this high frequency trading technology to their benefit by getting better prices than anyone else in the market.

The IEX Exchange would put Citadel Securities in the same courtyard as retail investors, leveling the playfield.

IEX would create a foundation for a fair market and Citadel Securities is suing the SEC for it.

The use of high frequency trading is not protecting retail investors, on the contrary it’s betting against them and the SEC has recognized this saying, “Citadel enjoys unfair advantages over other participants”.

Fighting against this order type is like getting angry for having to share your cake at your own birthday party.

Citadel processes close to 50% of the entire market’s orders. The company would face massive losses from eliminating high frequency trading alone.

Not to mention, the heavily shorted stock they have been betting against.

What Would IEX Mean For AMC and GME?

AMC GME

We know that high frequency trading gives these firms a trading edge over heavily shorted stock.

They’re able to locate and identify foreign exchanges where the price is significantly lower, and use these means to cheat the system by buying back borrowed shares low; profiting the difference from selling high and driving these stocks down.

IEX would seal these cracks in the system. The D-Limit is meant to keep prices equal and consistent throughout the markets.

This order type will essentially put a halt to high frequency trading, changing the entire game in the markets.

We would have transitioned from an older world of finance, to an innovative one that may bring more participants to the market.

So, How Will This Affect AMC And GameStop?

AMC GameStop

The price moves based on supply and demand would be significantly more accurate.

I would expect massive price moves from retail momentum finally display in the lit market.

IEX is the first step towards a fair market and retail investors must support it’s innovative structure to fight high frequency trading.

Only then could we move on to the checklist of eliminating dark pool trading and other predatory strategies.

What Are The Chances Of The D-Limit Order Type Being Approved?

This would highly depend on the judge(s) looking into this matter. There are a lot of factors that can take place here and Dave Laurer, a former Citadel Securities employee said it well in a recent interview with Trey.

He mentioned you never know what kind of deals are being made behind-the-scenes that may influence certain decisions.

And although Dave Laurer wasn’t very optimistic, I believe the energy we should be feeding is that of positive impact and real change in the markets.

The D-Limit order type would be a significant innovation in our markets and must be upheld.

It would be up to retail investors to fight for justice and a fair market should it not be upheld in court.

This is a developing story so make sure to subscribe to the blog or follow me on social media to get notified on the next updates.

Is The D-Limit Order Type That Good?

To put things into perspective, the IEX Exchange has done numerous tests observing the accuracy of the D-Limit order type.

They’ve found over several tests that not only does the AI match prices but also sets new and higher prices in the market.

The IEX Exchange would give the market a much needed refresh that would allow stocks to perform significantly better than the current model.

IEX Order Displayed Orders Improving
IEX Displayed Orders Improving

This is the closest we’ve come to restructuring the markets and is massively bullish in my opinion.

For our community to be part of this incredible innovation alone is a massive win.

This is what we do. People like us fight for a fair market.

And whether this D-Limit order type goes through or not, this is what we’re going to be known for.

Our community is a beacon for change.

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BREAKING: 95% of Retail Orders Don’t Go Through Lit Exchange

Gary Gensler says 90%-95% of retail orders don't go through lit exchange
Gary Gensler says 90%-95% of retail orders don’t go through lit exchange

Gary Gensler just announced exclusively on Bloomberg that 90-95% of retail orders don’t go through the lit exchange.

The SEC Commissioner says these orders are rerouted to dark pools rather than the NYSE.

It’s a year after the ‘meme stock’ frenzy that the community receives this official news.

The ‘ape’ community has been labeled as conspiracy theorists but have proven to be correct time and time again.

Will synthetics finally be uncovered?

And how soon will AMC and GameStop squeeze?

franknez.com

Welcome to Franknez.com – Gary Gensler just confirmed the market manipulation that the ‘ape’ community has been exposing all year. Ladies and gentlemen, this means AMC’s share price is synthetic…

Let’s get started!

Gary Gensler on Bloomberg

Gary Gensler confirms 90%-95% or retail orders are processed in dark pools

SEC Chairman and Commissioner Gary Gensler says payment for order flow is partly the reason why orders aren’t processed on the lit exchange.

He says retail orders go to wholesalers on an order-by-order competition.

Citadel’s Ken Griffin has praised PFOF stating it’s good for retail investors.

However, PFOF allows market makers to process retails orders in the ‘dark markets’, or dark pools.

This means retail buying volume is out of sync with AMC’s actual share price.

AMC’s share price is synthetic, it only reflects a small portion of buying volume.

Market Makers have been stealing from retail investors

Market makers have been stealing from retail investors with absolutely no consequence from regulators.

Now that the cat is out of the hat, what is going to be done about it?

How does one account for all the orders that have been derailed from the lit exchange market and fix the share price to reflect the correct amount?

Banning PFOF is one thing but what about the money that has been masked by dark pools?

Will these financial institutions be held accountable for financial treason?

The integrity of the stock market has been tainted for far too long, now it’s time to take action.

Will PFOF get banned in the U.S?

According to Gary Gensler, PFOF is banned in the UK, Canada, Australia, and in Europe.

However, because the U.S has a very strong capitalist economy, it could prove to be difficult.

Gensler says, “I think it’s natural that we look to say, how do we drive great competition and efficiency in this market, and use the tools that congress has given us.”

Here the SEC Chairman is saying their solution is to find someone who can compete with these market makers rather than banning PFOF in general.

We’ve seen these efforts through the IEX exchange D-Limit order.

IEX is a lit exchange that reflects much more accurate share prices and eliminates the predatorial strategies used by market makers and hedge funds.

These strategies include PFOF and high frequency trading.

Retail wants orders processed through the lit exchange

The SEC is supposed to be protecting retail investors from nefarious market practices.

Therefore, it is the SEC’s duty to find a solution and locate the money that retail is missing.

Retail wants orders processed through the lit exchange.

Market makers do not have the consent to move retail money through dark pools or other foreign markets.

#MarketMakersDontHaveConsent

Gary Gensler on “meme stocks”

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Gary Gensler is going to have a response for the retail community next week and touch topic more specifically on “meme stocks”.

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Citadel And Virtu Are Creating Massive Systemic Risk

Citadel and Virtue Systemic Risk

The system almost failed earlier this year due to the systemic risks in the hands of the two biggest market makers.

Citadel and Virtu CEO’s Ken Griffin and Douglas Cifu continue to argue that retail investors have never had it better.

Although the SEC has been observing for quite some time, they are finally looking into both of their business models.

But is that enough?

What can be done in order to avoid the collapse of an entire system?

The SEC has taken a stance against high frequency trading and is currently supporting the D-Limit order from IEX.

It’s time for retail investors to speak up and let our government leaders know our needs in the market.

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Welcome to Franknez.com – the blog that fights for retail investors and for a fair market. Today’s topic is extremely important so let’s dive right into it.

Let’s get started!

System of Checks and Balances

checks and balances

In the United States, the system of checks and balances provides each branch of government with individual powers to check the other branches and prevent one branch from becoming too powerful.

However, there seems to be a massive concentration of power between market makers Citadel and Virtu in the finance world.

These two market makers are responsible for processing majority of retail investor orders.

This creates massive systemic risks since there is so much power concentrated just within these two key players.

Should one or both fail, the entire system could collapse.

This almost happened in January during the ‘meme stock’ rallies.

Citadel claims they were the only market maker processing orders from Robinhood and this is a big problem.

There needs to be a separation of power.

It’s extremely important that retail investors voice their needs from government leaders regarding this matter.

PFOF Takes More Than It Gives

Citadel, Virtu, and Robinhood continue to stand by payment for order flow.

The issue with PFOF is that it takes more than it actually gives.

Market makers argue that it saves retail investors billions of dollars annually but fail to mention that they also make money from retail through high frequency trading.

In this documentary you will find Citadel makes their money shorting stock.

The Story of Citadel

Retail investors don’t want their orders processed by a company that is a market maker, hedge fund, and dark pool all at the same time.

Not only is Citadel profiting from retail money through high frequency trading, but they are also shorting the stock retail investors are buying through various means.

Dark pool trading and naked short selling are some other ways we’ve seen hedge funds suppress the rise of a stocks share price.

More so in ‘meme stocks’ such as GameStop and AMC, which are heavily shorted.

But there’s another issue that has yet to be addressed and that is OTC, or what’s also known as off-exchange trading.

The Rise of Off-Exchange Trading

Recession

Over-the-counter (OTC), or off-exchange trading is when trading occurs between two parties instead of through an exchange, such as the NYSE (New York Stock Exchange).

Market makers essentially negotiate with one another through dealer quotation services such as FINRA’s OTC Bulletin Board.

Yes, that is the same FINRA that is supposed to be protecting retail investors and safeguarding market integrity.

Off exchange trading is not as regulated as the NYSE nor does it require prices to be publicly disclosed.

Market makers can short a stock in these off exchange trading platforms and also create a ‘perfect hedge’, allowing them to offset or eliminate all risk on their position(s).

Retail investors go long on stocks.

So when market makers such as Citadel and Virtu are using tools to make money from shorting stocks, retail investors are at a massive disadvantage.

Market Makers Are A Threat To Our Economy

Market makers pose a serious risk to our economy and the businesses that provide massive value to our society.

As long as this concentration of power isn’t broken, the United States economy will always face systemic risk.

And when the entire country is economically on its knees, financial institutions who shorted on the way down will be the only ones compensated for it.

This is when integrity is buried by greed.

So what’s going to be done about it?

Our community now has a voice.

We must continue to fight against market corruption, and we must fight for a fair market.

Only then will we be able to mitigate systemic risk and make a positive impact in our economy.

Retail Investors Can Grow Our Economy

retail investors can grow our economy

With more people now learning about the markets more than ever, this could greatly benefit our economy.

Not only does the average person get to invest in the stock market, but we get to support the ideas and innovations of the companies in our country.

People don’t need to make a lot of money to invest.

But fair investing could improve the quality of life for millions of people.

The average person could provide more for their family, the government would collect capital gain taxes, and our businesses would excel much more rapidly.

Our government must look at solutions for economic prosperity and growth.

Market makers such as Citadel and Virtu suppress economic growth for their selfish gain.

They do not contribute to society.

This is why we’re seeing a power like China catch up to the United States with such an intense and exponential growth.

They’ve eliminated a lot of the issues in their markets that we have in ours today.

Institutional investors play a dominant role in the U.S markets, while Chinese markets are dominated by retail investors.

This, ladies and gentlemen is why there are now more wealthier Chinese than there are Americans.

Our government must look at market structure and identify what is going to spur growth in our nation.

Leave A Comment Below

I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comment section below. What does our government need to do to mitigate systemic risk?

Do you believe retail investors and make a greater and more positive impact than market makers can?

Share your thoughts below.

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3 Judge Panel Breakdown: Citadel VS SEC Lawsuit Hearing

Citadel Securities vs SEC Lawsuit Hearing
Citadel Securities vs. SEC lawsuit hearing

Judges Rao, Walker, and Sentelle, asked tough questions during the first part of this Citadel vs SEC lawsuit hearing.

The hearing took place yesterday, October 25th, 2021 but continues today.

I’m going to be breaking down parts of the hearing and summarizing key points.

I will also be linking the video of the live lawsuit hearing for your viewing pleasure.

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Welcome to Franknez.com – the Citadel vs SEC lawsuit hearing has commenced. Be sure to bookmark this page is this developing story unfolds.

Let’s get stared!

The lawsuit hearing started with Judge Walker asking Mr. Wall, Citadel’s lawyer, “Mr. Wall, do you think latency arbitrage exists?”

To which Mr. Wall responded, “[stutters] I don’t think the court has to get into it..”

And this set the entire mood of what was about to go down.

To start off, all three judges were great.

Both Mr. Wall and Catherine Stetson of IEX, were asked very fair questions.

Let’s begin with Citadel’s argument against SEC and IEX technology.

Citadel Argument Against The SEC

Citadel

In the legality of things, Citadel Securities is suing the SEC for ‘violating’ the Administrative Procedure Act that sets requirements for making changes to agency regulations.

As you know, the changes the SEC made was approving the D-Limit order through the IEX Exchange.

This D-Limit order eliminates market arbitrage and predatory tactics against retail investors by using AI technology to level the share prices of stock throughout all exchanges and offering higher and better quality prices.

Citadel Securities says the SEC disregarded important data showing that the rule would hurt retail investors.

On a side note, Citadel Securities is not for retail investors.

Retail investors do not want their orders going through Citadel nor any association having to do with the market maker.

Citadel Securities is not just a market maker, but a hedge fund and dark pool altogether.

Their predatory tactics against retail investors have suppressed the momentum rallied by the AMC and GME community looking to spark a short squeeze from these heavily and overleveraged stocks.

What Is The Data That Would Hurt Retail Investors?

According to Mr. Wall, the data the SEC missed that would hurt retail investors is that share prices would be higher due to IEX.

He argues that IEX is not sufficiently tailored for retail investors but fails to identify exactly how they miss the mark.

Mr. Wall is suggesting that a leveled playfield would harm retail investors because IEX is able to set better and higher prices than their current model…

It seems Citadel wants to protect retail investors from paying higher and more accurate share prices across all exchanges?

Ladies and gentlemen, this argument is pitiful.

Retail investors have been fighting for a fair market and for a leveled playfield where high frequency trading isn’t affecting their trades and long-term investments.

In simpler terms, IEX would not hurt retail investors but rather lay a foundation towards a more effective and fair market.

It’s this very reason the hashtag #CitadelIsNotForRetail has been trending on Twitter.

I think it’s fair to say that if we took a vote from retail investors, majority would vote for an IEX solution.

IEX Just Wants Liquidity (Bigger Market Share)

IEX

Mr. Wall argued that the premise doesn’t even surround latency arbitrage or market arbitrage but rather IEX’s desire for more liquidity, or bigger market share.

When avoiding questions about predatory tactics often used by high frequency trading firms, Mr. Wall deflects confirming the current use of market arbitrage by claiming IEX simply wants to gain liquidity.

In the lawsuit hearing, Mr. Wall confirms Citadel processed up to 56% or retail orders within a month time-frame.

It seems Citadel Securities is more concerned about losing market share than protecting retail.

But that’s not difficult to see.

Citadel Securities has proven to abuse their power and we’ve seen this specifically in AMC and GME stock.

As one of the top short sellers of the two stocks, we’ve seen millions of failure-to-delivers get reported, and the overextension of dark pool trading and even naked shorting occur.

High frequency trading has further given Citadel Securities a massive advantage over retail investors going long on these stocks.

Citadel Securities Argues No Latency Arbitrage Has Taken Place

Mr. Wall mentions that maybe a decade ago latency arbitrage could have been possible but not in today’s world.

This is where we see Catherine Stetson of IEX step in to give her stance in this lawsuit hearing.

“Citadel Pays Hundreds of Millions To Brokers”

money

Catherine Stetson made a great entrance providing backing information that IEX data has indeed found latency arbitrage.

IEX Exchange is the firm that has introduced innovation to the market with its D-Limit order.

The D-Limit order uses AI technology to execute high quality predictions across the market to set higher and more accurate share prices.

This order type eliminates market arbitrage strategically used by high frequency trading firms such as Citadel Securities and gives retail investors a fair playing field.

When orders are process by Citadel Securities, they are able to move them through several different exchanges, allowing them to profit from slower loading share prices on foreign exchanges.

Orders being process through IEX’s model enables the share prices to load equally amongst all exchanges.

Citadel Securities argues that this model intervenes with the natural laws of the stock market.

The same ones that have allowed them to take advantage of market participants.

Catherine Stetson made a valid point when she said, “Citadel pays hundreds of millions of dollars to get retail orders, and profit from them.”

During the lawsuit hearing, Judge Walker sternly addressed Mr. Wall by saying, “You’re the one who’s trying to regulate your way into market victory.”

It’s not difficult to see the intentions of both parties.

“We Are In The Middle of A Speed-War We Never Signed Up For” – Catherine Stetson

High frequency trading

Catherine Stetson made a remarkable statement that addressed the real issue of high frequency trading in the markets.

Her statement regarding retail investors participating in a speed-war we never signed up for sums up the deceit of market maker, hedge fund, and dark pool, Citadel Securities.

This is a statement declaring change in our markets.

This is a statement fighting for a fair market, and a voice aimed towards protecting retail investors.

IEX is seeking to eliminate market arbitrage from high frequency trading firms and begin processing orders that will put retail and financial institutions in the same playfield.

For more on IEX and how this exchange will affect AMC and GME shareholders, read my latest article here.

But in short, the market’s share price would reflect more on the actual supply and demand, releasing pressure for growth.

The SEC Is Fighting To Protect Retail

SEC

The SEC has been under fire by retail investors primarily due to the lack of regulation within our markets.

However, I think it’s fair to say the SEC is doing a great service by supporting IEX and the D-Limit order that will level the playfield for all participants.

Although the SEC’s discussion in the lawsuit hearing was brief, Emily Parise stood her ground as to why the SEC was not violating the Administrative Procedure Act.

This case continues today and I will be updating you on the second part to the lawsuit hearing here tomorrow.

You can watch the hour debate on YouTube here (starts at 55:00).

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